Twilight Zone Think Along Episode

June 12th, 2009

• Maitreya, the man of lawlessness and Emergent theology in Africa

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[Jen]

It's Rob Bell!!!

just kiddin'

[Kate]

Hiya only a few minutes into the podcast, but gotta tell you now - I saw you'd got a Maitreya podcast and thought woahhh. I keep hearing his name mentioned on the rabbit trails I follow with lots of false teachers background. Very interested in what you're going to say.

It's also really scary that he is currently hidden. Nasty stuff.

[Roger Saner]

Hi

I see you picked up the talks from Amahoro at FutureChurch.co.za - I'm glad you've been able to listen to some of them. This is the only show of yours I've listened to, so my comments are without the larger context of your podcasts.

The continent of Africa is in much pain, and Christianity has not been innocent in bringing about that pain. The Amahoro Gatherings are about honestly facing the ways that Christian theology had intertwined with the colonial narrative, so that Christ was used to take over countries and "civilise" the "savages". For us African Christians, before we can can preach the good news, we first must be honest about how the "good news" became "bad news". This is the pain of post-Apartheid South Africa, and a post-genocide Rwanda.

Claude spoke about genocide, and you responded by saying that "We call this 'sin'" - and you're right. You seem to be saying that if people were to turn to Christ, then genocide wouldn't happen (may that be true in future!). The unfortunate truth is that the Rwandan genocide took place in a country where over 90% of people claimed to be Christian. The legacy of a colonial Christianity in Africa has left a church which is a mile wide, but an inch deep.

Unfortunately, the Bible has also been used to gain control and power over others. As Desmond Tutu has said:
"When the White Man came, we had the land and they had the Bible. They said, 'Let us pray.' When we opened our eyes, they had the land and we had the Bible."

Post-colonial Christianity means we need to be honest about the ways the Bible was evilly used...by Christians. This is a hard truth, and means - by virtue of being aware of the suffering on this continent - that we need to re-examine the ways in which we use the Bible to gain power over others, rather than serving them.

What Christians have assumed in the past is that preaching repentance in the name of Jesus is enough; what Christians find in Africa is that it's impossible to pray for someone and then watch them walk away hungry and thirsty and with no education. That is incomplete love. In the West, people have managed to separate body and soul, and while Christians are good at caring for the soul, they are so privileged they don't need to worry about the body (by and large). The message of Africa to the West (and of the poor *in* the West) is that both spheres of life are connected, and God cares about both.

I know you don't agree with our eschatology (for my own position, I refer you to Andrew Perriman's "The coming of the son of Man" and anything by N.T. Wright) - but it's not Biblically indefensible. Our position is summed up in the Lord's prayer: "Your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven." This doesn't mean we leave behind the gospels, or Jesus - anything but! We didn't record the times of worship or prayer or Scripture reading, and so if you want to judge the entire conference through the talks you've listened to, know that you're missing out on a big part of what went on. People here have dedicated their lives to Jesus, whether running orphanages or churches or anything else.

This is only a brief response. The issues we are facing are complicated and long-running. The solutions are not simple and the road is long. Thank you for engaging with the conversation.

Regards
Roger

[Discerning The World]

Oh my goodness, have we only opened a can o' worms... The emergents are coming onto my blog and letting rip. I'm gonna stop commenting cos I have said what I needed to say. If they don't get it by the 3rd repeat then yeah..I consider that a decent attempt on my behalf lol.

But then it's the Holy Spirit that has the FINAL SAY.

You know what's gonna happen...genuine christians are going to be labelled racists because we do not want to agree with the 'new' christians.

[Amy]

There are so many straw men in Brian McLaren's address, it's a fire hazard.

He's got nothing but white guilt. He's trying to get Europeans to atone for collective sins through "good deeds" and a whole lot of self-flagellation. Notice that he does not call any other culture to this kind of atonement. It's sanctification by group identity, not through Christ.

[Discerning The World]

Roger

Allloooo Roger...It's me your all time favourite bogger, the one you can’t wait to strangle…yeah yeah….I know ;)

Anywayyyyy it seems that what you spoke about here on this website seems to be completely different to what you said on my blog.... not sure why...anyhow...

So for the benefit of the listeners and yes Roger I am going against what you have to say again...yes I know…sorry, I can’t help it. Standing up for the Jesus Christ is a life commitment.

Ama'horror' are a group of people that got together from Emergent (Interfaith) backgrounds who are going to use the plight of the poor in Africa to usher in The Christ (Emergents and others with similar *we’e going to transfigure the earth into the Kingdom of God and the people on earth little gods and live happily ever after* ideas think that they are collaborating with the ‘Christ’ to (drawing blue-prints on Visio) to bring about this ‘so called’ wonderful paradigm shift – The problem is it’s NOT Jesus Christ of the Bible, but a False Christ – This is the Christ that all faiths will accept.

It's actually a shame (Roger and friends at Amahoro) that you can't see that once again African people are going to be taken advantage of and this time it's YOU. You are running around apologising for the 'sins of the fathers' (re:- colonialism, slavery, oppression, apartheid etc) all the while not taking note of the massive destruction you are going to be taking part in, in the coming years by faling for the lies you are being told.

Africa, what a devestated continent. Sad beyond sad. First colonialism, then slavery and NOW running after a False Christ who is going to give them so much hope, food, water and miracle healings etc. Who would blame anyone in such dire consequences when the willingly fall at the feet of a supernatural man/thing that gives them everything they ever wanted; even if what they wanted was the tiniest little thing on earth that could make them happy...

But what's happening to their souls Roger? Amahoro does not focus on saving souls at all. It’s not about the gospel of Evacuation the audio clip said? In fact they are in the business of SELLING SOULS.

We really are in the lastest of the laaaaastest days. Me thinks...anyhow.

[Amanda]

Roger

You said: "I’m not going to listen to the second program until Chris has published the comment which I left on his first. There’s no point in trying to enter a conversation when the other party doesn’t care."

Now that Chris has published your comment, I trust that you will go and listen to the second program. In fact, I would suggest that you also listen to the one after that. It should clear up your confusion about Law and Gospel. The works righteousness preached nowadays in the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa is not the Gospel, Roger. And it is not Christian.

You are aware of the recently held Acts conference in Stellenbosch, Cape Town to plan for the road ahead? This is what they have discovered, studying the book of Acts:

"Our group worked on Acts 15-20. Between 11:00 and 12:00 today, we identified the following as the most important theological thread for South Africa today:

"Looking at our text, but also at the whole of Acts, we notice that Acts tell the story of boundries that was crossed. Of course, we didn’t notice this first, the scholars that introduced he discussion also pointed us to this. However, what we believe is important is that the boundry crossing always caused the Jerusalem church to change their theology. When Peter visit Cornelius, the theology change. At the meeting in Jerusalem, the fact that boundries have been crossed changes the theology.

"That we need to cross boundries is commonly accepted in South Africa today. But crossing boundries need to change the theology of those on the inside. The Dutch Reformed Church need to cross the racial and economic boundries (among others) that form our context, and this need to deeply change the theology of our church."

http://mycontemplations.wordpress.com/2009/05/14/acts-15-20-for-south-africa-today/

Subtle, hey? I put it to you that, since Christian missionaries from the DRC have always crossed those boundaries, the emergents are pretending that they have not, in order for them to 'change the theology of our church'.

I cannot access the conference article on line now, but here are some nuggets:

http://www.communitas.co.za/index.php/dienste/konferensies/handelinge/1158-the-holy-spirit-made-the-church-grow-by-crossing-boundaries?lang=

"I think the way Luke tells the story of both his Gospel and Acts shows that the crossing of boundaries is a key element in understanding the way the gospel works. In Acts it is one of the most important ways the Holy Spirit grows the church.

"From Luke's Gospel we learn that the salvation of Jesus Christ impacted all levels of Jewish society in a vertical manner and that this remains a foundational aspect of the way God works in any society. All people are welcome in the kingdom of God and therefore in the church.

"This is thus also a key element in the developing of a missional theology. The spreading of the gospel and the inclusion of people into the kingdom across sociological boundaries are more important than the identity concerns of any specific sociological group, whether they are believers reaching out or not.

"From the book of Acts we learn that the Holy Spirit inspired the believers in various ways to cross horizontal boundaries. We read of the crossing of language, economical, sociological, geographical, cultural, ethnic, religious, intellectual and political boundaries. And those terms are just a selection - the truth is, there is no boundary that the Spirit would not urge us to cross, if that could mean that the kingdom could come for a few more people unto the ends of the earth. All cultures are welcome in the church."

This makes no sense to me at all. Are they saying that other religions are to be welcomed into the Christian church? All is one?

This is what dominee [reverend] Cobus van Wyngaard wrote about Scot McKnight visiting South Africa for the Acts conference:

"Part of converting is a crisis that is addressed. For years now I’ve been getting more and more uncomfortable with the fact that we have been creating a crisis in our attempts of evangelism. This crisis have usually been by painting a vivid picture of how someone might just burn in hell, or in lighter forms convincing someone of the severity of his/her sins, and this warthful God that really cannot help but punish us, that is of course just. Scot mentioned Brian Mclaren’s moral question: How can a just God punish a lifetime of sins with eternal torment?

"But what Scot was actually talking about in the end was how people deconvert from Christianity, how people become non-Christians. What is the crisis moments that lead to this?

"In his book Finding Faith Loosing Faith he talks about a number of crisis that leads to deconversion. I’ll order the book sometime, and will mention them more when I get the book, but form today’s talk Scot confirmed one thing: Fundamentalism creates extremely good soil for atheism to flourish in. I’ve been saying this for a long time now. The crisis that fundamentalism creates is that an expectation on infallability of the Bible is created that cannot be met, and the text never intended to meet, when that realisation dawn on someone, it has the potential of leading to atheism."

http://mycontemplations.wordpress.com/2009/05/12/mcknight-on-conversion-theory-and-deconversion/

Roger, I wrote: “Chris has a standing invitation to his listeners to rebuke him if he strays from the Word of God.” You replied: "Wonderful! But Chris isn’t open to seeing that the way he interprets the Word of God is being called into question, and since his interpretation is self-defined as being correct, no-one can disagree with him and get away with it. Please post a link to where Chris has changed his mind on something so I can see if he is indeed open to correction."

His listeners have indeed corrected him. If you insist I will find it. But if you want to call into question the way he interprets the Word of God, do it right here. For instance, I assume you are in full agreement with what Ds. Van Wyngaard wrote in the above quote? I can guarantee you that Chris will have a couple of problems with Van Wyngaard's interpretation.

Roger, you wrote: "We didn't record the times of worship or prayer or Scripture reading, and so if you want to judge the entire conference through the talks you've listened to, know that you're missing out on a big part of what went on."

Like the meditation. Was it group meditation, Roger? If so, how does it differ from the group meditation prescribed by Benjamin Crème:

Transmission Meditation

Do you want to help the world and build a stronger connection with your own spiritual nature? Transmission Meditation is the simplest way to do both ― at the same time ― .

Transmission Meditation is safe, scientific, non-denominational, and extremely potent. It will not interfere with any other religious or spiritual practice. In fact it will enhance your personal meditation and any other service activities in which you may be engaged. Many people find they can experience and demonstrate love more easily.

http://www.share-international.org/background/xmission/tm_main.htm

You are standing into danger, Roger!

My apologies for the long quotes. It is for the benefit of my American brethren who listened to the program and who might assume that Brain McLaren's ideas will be tossed out by the DRC in South Africa. It won't and I think the same attack is coming to your country too.

[Roger Saner]

Discerning The World was threatened by emerging types on her blog. It's unacceptable that people ask her which city she lives in - they're clearly targeting her for acts of violence.

Chris, you mentioned that global warming doesn't exist. If your listeners would like, they can check out the basic information on climate change site.

Regardless of whether you think climate change is happening or not, we still have a Biblical mandate to take care of the earth.

[Discerning The World]

YES ROGER, it is completely unacceptable to be asked, asked and asked, over and over and over again for my name and details of where I live.

But lets set the record straight: you asked ME - Discerning The World:

>> "Discerning The World: what church do you go to so that I can attend and be enlightened?"

I again repeated that I was not willing to meet with you.

The very, very scary Nic Paton then asked:

>>> "DTW, Roger asks a simple question, it cannot be hard to answer: What is your name and where do you live? And if you will not answer that then can you please explain why?"

Because you're scary?????

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Nic Paton wrote this on his blog: The Holy Trickster.

Roger commented: "Wow - if there was a prize for brilliant blog entries, I’d give it to you
for this one!"

http://soundandsilence.wordpress.com/2008/03/12/the-holy-trickster/

Quotes from Nic's post:

*I might have appeared to be another hi finance techno-drone, but I realise now, I was in fact an incarnation of the trickster."

*"So I rejoice at the presence of the Trickster in a barren land of closed thought, for quite apart from being the bringer of death and
destruction, he in fact is a catalyst for life and salvation. I now look at Jesus as embodying (amongst all things divine) this trickster,
as well.

*“Be as wise/sly as serpents and as harmless a doves”. In this metaphor, the serpent is not an outlaw, but something to be actively embraced.

*“I will make myself more foolish in their eyes” –David, shamanic worshipper and “apple of G-d’s eye”.

*But I am coming to see the Trickster no so much as a threat, but a gift. In fact, I see him as quite central to the core christian truth of incarnation, as well as central to all creativity.

*I suggest that this is where the trickster comes to assist us. His realm includes ambiguity, irony, and play, incompleteness and chaos, holding in tension and suspending belief, generosity and cruelty, imagination, flexibility and cunning shifting of shape, the boundaries
between life and death, and making connections where they are not supposed to be.

*As we focus on the task of apprehending or worshiping the Divine, wrestle with the complexities or truth, or simply seek to live life
more fully, we should imaginatively and openly engage the services of his mythical “holy trickster”.

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Well I can honestly say, the above text from Nic Paton leaves absolutely nothing left for the imagination. He has covered all the bases - Occult through and through. Might as well have been Satan who wrote that.

Check out this: Iggy says to me on my discerningtheworld2 blog - 2009/06/24 at 2:01pm

"...read with more comprehension or have allowed Satan so so blind you with hate against your brothers and sisters in Christ that you cannot see. If so I ask God to do as He will be it blind you completely or open your eyes so you can see the damage you are doing. Either way I place you in God’s Hands and that He deals with you."

Blind me completely? Iggy is friends with Nic and Roger and, and, and. And they wanted to know my name and where I live? Thank goodness my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ gave me a brain with strict instructions on how to use it :)

It is very very disconcerting that, these people are the 'young' leaders of the Emergent movement in South Afirca. So we got WoF, NAR and EMGT and they are all leading to the same direction: Panentheim - God is all, All is in God. We worship creation, man becomes god, Build a kingdom on heaven on earth (dominionism/kingdom now) and obtain god-level through meditation.