Rob Bell Calls Chris Rosebrough a Dog

November 11, 2008

Segment 1 - Listener Email

Segment 2 - Liberal Terrorists Interrupt a Church Service in Michigan

Segment 3 - Rob Bell Calls Chris Rosebrough a Dog

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You can email us at talkback@fightingforthefaith.com

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[Warren]

Great show.
Way to stand for the truth about Law and Gospel,Chris I mean DAWG.

[Erica]

If the dog collar fits...........

[Ken Silva]

"If the dog collar fits..........."

Yes, a message from an actual member of Rob Bell's church. You can just feel the love from that "tribe"; can't ya.

What a hypocrite Bell is. First he slams other "tribes" within the Christian faith, because his views are juuussst a little better than theirs.

And then he's foolish enough to tell us it's wrong to do what he has just been doing! Amazing, people can't see through his postliberal garbage and destructive higher criticism of the Bible.

Exact; same; basic humanistic tripe that was refuted by J.G. Machen years before there ever was a Rob Bell.

[Ken Silva]

"If the dog collar fits..........."

Yes, a message from an actual member of Rob Bell's church. You can just feel the love from that "tribe"; can't ya.

What a hypocrite Bell is. First he slams other "tribes" within the Christian faith, because his views are juuussst a little better than theirs.

And then he's foolish enough to tell us it's wrong to do what he has just been doing! Amazing, people can't see through his postliberal garbage and destructive higher criticism of the Bible.

Exact; same; basic humanistic tripe that was refuted by J.G. Machen years before there ever was a Rob Bell.

[Erica]

First of all Ken, I don’t recall Rob ever mentioning Chris Rosebrough’s name. Do you? It seems to me that Chris listened to the message and felt like it was directed to him. This only means the Holy Spirit must have been convicting him while listening to it to come to such conclusions. I think it would only be right to change the title to “The Apostle Paul calls Chris a Dog” seeing the Apostle Paul is actually the one saying it and Rob was simply exegete the text. And how is Rob doing what he accusing others of doing? Rob has never slammed others for what they believe, or hold too. He simply thinks it is sad that people have to live by a certain “tribal code” and they think their way is the only way. Would you disagree with his exegeses of this text? I think it is pretty childish to point the figure back to him by saying “He does it too….” Either you agree or disagree with the words from the apostle Paul. It is that simple. If you agree, then all we should ask ourselves is “How does this apply to my life?”
Why is it wrong for me to say “if the collar fits?” Chris is the one who was convicted and believes the message applies to him. I was just restating what he already seems to know.
BTW, you don’t find is sad that Christians of all people were protesting the event?

[Justin]

What is the purpose of your show?

[mark]

Wow, an Erica Martino drive-by in less than 12 hours.

[Kairos]

Erica,

Rob Bell did not mention Chris by name but he mentioned Chris by describing his deeds. Chris is the one that posted the videos of what Bell said at the seeds of compassion event. Bell was clearly talking about Chris and Bell clearly called Chris a dog.

The problem that Chris had with Bell's appearance at that event was that Bell didn't proclaim nor represent the exclusive claims of Christ and the Biblical gospel. Instead, Bell's comments contributed to the overall theme of the event that all religions, despite their differences, are true and produce the same results. I recommend that you go back and listen to the two episodes of Fighting for the Faith where Chris reviews the comments by the Dalai Lama and others on the panel as well as what Bell said.

Also, in this episode of FFTF Chris utterly destroys Bell's false interpretation of Philipians 3 and show that Bell is not interpreting the passage correctly when he attempts to smuggle in his 'tribe' hermeneutic regarding circumcision. Rosebrough was dead on right when he pointed out that Phil 3 is not about tribalism run amuck but about those who are trying to add works of the law and self-righteousness to the gospel.

It's pretty clear to me that Rob Bell is a false teacher who twists God's word and doesn't correctly represent Christianity to the nations who are enslaved in false religions. It's pretty clear to me that Bell is okay with their false religions. The thing Bell is not okay with is the exclusive claims of Christ, otherwise he'd be proclaiming them.

I feel terrible for the children that heard Rob Bell at the Seeds of Compassion event because they were lead to believe that all religions are the same and Rob Bell didn't speak a single word that would have indicated otherwise.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

Exodus 20:3   “You shall have no other gods before me.

Jerimiah 25:6 Do not go after other gods to serve and worship them, or provoke me to anger with the work of your hands. Then I will do you no harm.’

Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me.
11 I, I am the LORD,
and besides me there is no savior.

[Erica]

Kairos
"The problem that Chris had with Bell's appearance at that event was that Bell didn't proclaim nor represent the exclusive claims of Christ and the Biblical gospel. Instead, Bell's comments contributed to the overall theme of the event that all religions, despite their differences, are true and produce the same results."
Ok where you there to know that he did not do this?
"Rosebrough was dead on right when he pointed out that Phil 3 is not about tribalism run amuck but about those who are trying to add works of the law and self-righteousness to the gospel."
Is this not tribalism?
"The thing Bell is not okay with is the exclusive claims of Christ, otherwise he'd be proclaiming them."
I guess this is a matter of opinion.
"I feel terrible for the children that heard Rob Bell at the Seeds of Compassion event because they were lead to believe that all religions are the same and Rob Bell didn't speak a single word that would have indicated otherwise."
Why did he have to say it there?
Then you quote a bunch of verses about worshiping other God's. Why? Are you struggling with this? Do you have other gods in your life? I am not sure what this has to do with anything.

[Lane Chaplin]

Ken and Chris,

HOW DARE YOU attack a hypocrite anointed by God? Any person who is not well trained in logic can see that Rob Bell is doing wonders for Christ followers! You two ought to be ashamed for holding others accountable for what the Bible actually teaches. Don't you two know that there's no such thing as absolute truth? That's absolutely true! I am ashamed to have people in my midst that seek to be as faithful to the Scriptures as you two. Can't you see what it does for people that hold Rob Bell to be their intercessor between God and men here on earth? Think about the emotional turmoil you're putting these people through by claiming that objective truth applies to this situation! Can't you tell that whining ends all argumentation! I must say, I thought lower of you two, but seeking to be faithful and true to Christ's teachings is a new high for you both. There's no shame to you two, is there!?

Waiting Until Bell Frees Me From Sin,
Lane

:)

[Joe]

If the dog collar fits...

Oh come on! That was funny stuff. I almost shot my coffee across the computer screen. Kairos, you speak as if you were at SOC, were you?
BTW, I listened to the third section of the radio program. I didn't hear anything get destroyed. Kind of cracks me up that you think listening to Chris's podcast is going to make us go, "OH WOW!!! Chris and Ken Silva have been right all along!!!!" What ethnicity is Kairos? Just Curious.

You guys crack me up. And yes my wife's comment was funny, funny stuff. I'm glad to hear you guys are listening to the podcasts, maybe God will use them in your life.

[Joe]

Ahhh, the wonderful Mr. Lane. Thanks for reminding about what I think of your tribe. Really and truly I appreciate it.
I think there's such a thing as absolute truth, I just think you, and Silva, and your ilk get the wrong absolute truth. I don't know how much clearer to make that.

[Joe]

Crap I forgot!!!

Waiting 'till Chris, Ken, Mike Ratliffe, and Lane set me free.

:)

[Lane Chaplin]

Joe, do you have any better arguments than an appeal to "what I think of your tribe" that you can present here or direct us to by links? No offense, but I don't wish to base my theology on your personal likes and dislikes. Actual argumentation presented by you instead of pejorative statements would be quite helpful.

[mark]

"I think there's such a thing as absolute truth, I just think you, and Silva, and your ilk get the wrong absolute truth"

um Joe...

...

how can something be absolutely true if it is false?(ie it is wrong and something else is right)

[Joe]

Excellent point Mark. I apologize for my poor wording but if you didn't get my gist there, I'm not sure I can help.
BTW, great post on your blog.

[Ken Silva]

Kind of cracks me up that Joe Martino of Rob Bell's church would think listening to him, his wife, or Bell is going to make us go, "OH WOW!!! Joe and Rob Bell have been right all along!!!!"

[Joe]

Sorry Ken, I couldn't hear you. I saw you were typing but all I heard was barking. The last 10 minutes of this program had spin that was Obama worthy.

[Ken Silva]

Yeah Joe, no problem. You are apparently unable to actually deal with issues at hand.

You are pretty good at airing your own opinions though, not unlike your spiritually spineless pastor Rob.

The Lord warns us about men like you - "A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion." (Proverbs 18:2)

[mark]

Joe,

Can you answer any of the questions Chris asks in the program and back your answers with Scripture? Just one would be fine.

Chris, thanks for doing what you do, this was one of the best sermon critiques I've heard you do.

[Joe]

Hey Mark,
Not sure I understand what you mean. I'm willing to stand by my pastor's interpretation of the passage. I'm willing to stand by his sermon. You can go to www.marshill.org to hear the sermon. Click on our teaching times, subscribe to Podcast.

[mark]

Joe,
I re-listened to the first segment; here are some of the questions posed. Remember we are not to blindly take a man's interpretation at face value, we are to be "examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things [are] so." Acts 17:11

1.) Is the prayer in the beginning Biblical?
a.) What verse says we should "center" ourselves?
b.) What verse says we should breathe in peace & grace and breathe out in justice?
c.) Where does the Bible say we are to work for the on going creation of good?

2.) In context is Paul trying to point us to Christ or tell us not to be "tribal"?

3.) Is Genesis 6:5 talking about all people throughout time or the people possessing the new brick technology?

4.) Is Genesis a "story poem" or is it an historical account?

5.) Is Genesis about technology in the wrong hands or is it about the intents of man's hearts being only evil continually.

Please back up your answers with Scripture and not your feelings or opinions.

Thanks

Oh. I do listen to the podcast on occasion when I need to be reminded how much I appreciate my pastor's dedication to The Word. Call me tribal...

[Chris Rosebrough]

Joe,

I think the easiest thing to do here is invite you to come on the program so that you can defend Bell's Tribal interpretation of Philippians 3.

Email me if you'd like to do this. But, keep in my mind that you have to provide clear Biblical evidence for that interpretation. Since you've taken seminary level Bible courses I expect only the best sound exegesis from you.

Chris

[Joe]

Against my better judgment I will join your dog and pony show. I will not be back for follow up's. You'll have to write a post about me at your boring blog.
1.) Is the prayer in the beginning Biblical? [yes]
a.) What verse says we should "center" ourselves? [there isn't. Nor is there a verse that says I should not]
b.) What verse says we should breathe in peace & grace and breathe out in justice? [it's called speaking metaphorically--take a communications class]
c.) Where does the Bible say we are to work for the on going creation of good? [pretty much from the beginning to the end. If I have to explain this one, I would question whether or not the Bible's actually been read by the questioner. Is being kind to one another, the ongoing creation of good? Eph. 4]
2.) In context is Paul trying to point us to Christ or tell us not to be "tribal"? [your question is a great example of the false either/or mentality prevalent throughout this entire program. Not being Tribal is pointing us to Christ]
3.) Is Genesis 6:5 talking about all people throughout time or the people possessing the new brick technology? [yes]
4.) Is Genesis a "story poem" or is it an historical account? [yes. This one cracks me up the most. Even the most jr. Hebrew student will admit that the creation account is written in Hebrew form. I believe in a literal 6 day creation. Once again, you and Mr. Rosebrough set up a false either/or situation as if believing it is a poem means you can't believe it's literal or accurate. I'm curious, do you read Hebrew? I know that Mr. Rosebrough does, and I do, but I don't know if you do. I know that Mr. Silva sat under the tape ministry of somebody who might have.]
5.) Is Genesis about technology in the wrong hands or is it about the intents of man's hearts being only evil continually. [I've never heard anyone say the entire book of Genesis is about technology, so I'm not sure where this question is coming from...oh wait. Do you mean the story about the tower of babel? Then I would again say, yes to your question. It is about both]
Mark,
I doubt I'd call you tribal, but I might call you dawg. Of course my wife's initial brilliant statement works both ways. If it doesn't fit then why you getting your lead line all fouled up?
Mark, I'm glad you've found a preacher you appreciate. Where's his sermon's? Are they online? Can we listen to them?

[Joe]

Chris,
I think I'll pass. Bring on Mr. Silva or Mrs. Schlueter and ask them for Biblical defense of their positions on alcohol, or concerts and I'll believe you're not on some sort of crusade.
I've given my answers to the questions (I guess we were posting at the same time). It seems pretty clear to me that Rob's exegesis of the text is in the context of the verse. He gives a pretty clear historical background to it (for which you cracked jokes about his "trying to obfuscate the point" when he used the Old Testament). What am I going to say that is going to be different than what Rob has already said? I just checked my bank account and I'm not being paid on retainer to be his legal defense. I came here because my wife's comment was funny.
As stated in my answers to Mark (author of the boring blog)I think you set up a false either/or scenario with your questions. Secondly, as I stated to Mr. Silva, I believe your last 10 minutes has more spin than an Obama press release. Did you "crucify" Rob in your posts? Maybe/Maybe not, but some of your colleagues certainly did. Many commenters did and many people used who used your vids did, so come on, let's have some intellectual honesty.
I only came over here because I thought my wife's comment was stinking funny and I know you did too. That was a great line.

[mark]

that's d-o-double g to you my friend :)

No I don't read Hebrew, I've never been to seminary and I'm not a pastor. I'm just a dumb sheep; that's why I tried to repeat some of the questions posed in the broadcast (hope I didn't misrepresent them).

Here is the list of sermons from my church
http://www.bereanbiblechapel.org/bibleteaching.htm

I hope you accept the invitation above.

[Joe]

LOL,
Sorry D O double G.
I won't be accepting the invite.

[Ken Silva]

"Bring on Mr. Silva...and ask [him] for Biblical defense of [his] positions on alcohol, or concerts."

What a pitiful example of the fruit from Rob Bell's "tribe" aka church when a member is so judgmental toward me.

I have never gone on record concerning either of those issues so there's nothing for me to defend.

Joe Martino of Mars Hill Bible Church gives every indication of being one of "them dawgs" with his constant attacks on me.

Is this what Bell teaches? I sure want no part of it.

[Erica]

Simmer down there Ken. The comment has nothing to do with you. Chris knows what he is talking about. It was not meant to attack you. Joe was simply stating he wondered what your take would be on the issues:-)

[Joe]

KS: his constant attacks on me.

JM: yeah, Ken that's all I do is attack you. Haha. Sure thing bud. Chris, I'm done here. Have a good weekend.

[Chris Rosebrough]

Joe,

Bell's 'Tribal' interpretation of Phil 3 cannot be supported using sound exegesis and hermeneutics and you know it.

Paul is NOT warning us about tribal thinking in Phil 3. He's warning us about those who think they are saved by their law keeping rather than through faith in Christ.

To help prove this point, I’m going to substitute all of Paul’s Law-Keeping vs. Faith phrases in Phil 3 with the terms ‘Tribal Identities’ and Global-Centric. This little exercise shows the beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bell is NOT correctly interpreting this passage. In fact, he’s not even close.

Phil. 3:2   Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who are global-centric and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in tribal identities— 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in tribal identities also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in tribal identities, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of tribal identities and count them as rubbish, in order that I may be global-centric and gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from tribal identities, but that which comes through being global-centric in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on being global-centric— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Sorry Joe, but that interpretation does not work and completely misses the mark.

Since you have taken seminary level courses on Biblical interpretation then you are also aware of the hermeneutical principle of scripture interprets scripture. Using that principle let’s look at a DIRECT cross-reference to Phil 3. That passage is Galatians 5:2-6. Here is what that passage states:

Gal. 5:2   Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Notice that Paul clearly and in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS makes the circumcision issue one of salvation via LAW KEEPING rather than salvation via faith. Tribalism has nothing to do with this issue.

Joe, I am very concerned for you and Erica. That you would not have enough Biblical discernment to not see through Bell’s error and that you would defend his indefensible interpretation of Phil 3 has me very worried for you and your family. You guys are in my prayers.

[Erica]

The idea that you get saved through circumcision is tribalism. How can you miss this? You can attack mine and Joe’s bible knowledge all you want, I question yours and your understanding of the bible.Thank you for your prayers we can always use them seeing the year we have had so far...

[Chris Rosebrough]

Erica,

You're dead wrong.

Biblical Fact #1 - Circumcision is the sign of a covenant with God.

Gen. 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Biblical Fact #2 -Circumcision was done the Jews out of obedience to the Law of Moses.

Lev. 12:1   The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, ‘If a woman conceives and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days. As at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean. 3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

Biblical Fact #3 - The Judiazers of the 1st century we're condemned NOT because they were teaching tribalism, they were condemned because they were adding 'law keeping' to salvation.

This is NOT my opinion. This is the CLEAR teaching of the scriptures:

Acts 15:1   But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

Erica, Rob Bell is teaching you lies. His interpretation of Phil 3 is way off and that passage of scripture deals with the central doctrine of the Christian faith; salvation by Grace Alone through Faith Alone by Christ Alone. That Bell's interpretation does not correctly handle that central doctrine is a VERY serious matter and should cause you to be looking for another church.

[Erica]

What did circumcision do?
Answer:
It made you a part of the that tribe.

[Erica]

Vs 5
Judazers focused on circumcision as the way to be right with God

Paul points out that he was in fact circumcised on the 8th day which makes him a pure Jew (Lev 12:3) not a proselyte.
Paul knew that being circumcised had nothing to do with righteousness or being saved

Of the people of Israel
That means he was a member of God’s elect race. Paul was a Jew traced back to Abraham. (Romans 11:1-2) (2 Corinthians 11:22)

Of the tribe of Benjamin
This point out the significance of being a part of one of Israel’s tribe a heritage greatly esteemed among the Jews.
Chris you are right one hundred percent it was original a part of being in a relationship with God but they were messing it up, these Judazers and that is tribalism, which is being addressed in Phil 3. They were making it into something it was not. That is why Paul says those Dogs, those mutilators of the flesh.

He goes on to say
NONE of it matters. It does not matter that he held to his tribal rituals of being circumcised to hold to his heritage of belonging to Israel. It does not matter that he was a great religious leader.
“What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.”
NONE OF IT MATTERS! The tribes of Israel lived under the law not grace. They were so caught up in their tribal rituals thus living under the law. Paul says righteousness comes from God.
Some things have not changed today. We all have our “tribal ways” and our way is the right way. We hold to our heritage!! Paul is saying that should not matter what matters the righteousness is found in know God and is by faith. That is exactly what Rob was saying.
Chris what you and a bunch of your followers did was wrong. You were not at Seeds of Compassion and you have no idea what happen there you don’t know what Rob did or did not say at breakfast, lunch, dinner, or casual conversation. But since it was not done your way; it was wrong. It is about being righteous and that righteousness comes from God not by obeying the Chris and Ken and everyone else’s way of doing things.

[Ken Silva]

Salvation is through God's grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone and our righteousness comes from God not by obeying Rob and Joe and everyone else’s way of doing things.

[Chris Rosebrough]

Erica,

You asked the question, "What did circumcision do? " by saying...It made you a part of the that tribe.

With all due respect, you cannot produce a single passage of scripture that says that. Because is there are no verses that say that.

God's Word decides what Circumcision does not you, not me, not Rob Bell.

The 'tribe interpretation' that you keep defending is nothing more than isogesis. You're guilty of reading that into the text.

So before you tell me more about Tribes and tribalism. Give me one verse that says "Circumcision makes you part of the tribe".

Genesis 17:11 clearly says that, circumcision is a sign of a convenant with God. Here is what the passage says...

Genesis 17:11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.

Circumcision is Covenantal not Tribal.

Again the problem with the Judiazers is not that they were being tribal but that they were making the keeping of the Mosaic Law a requirement of Salvation.

Acts 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

You said, "We all have our “tribal ways” and our way is the right way. We hold to our heritage!! Paul is saying that should not matter what matters the righteousness is found in know [sic] God and is by faith."

Sorry but that is not what Paul was saying in Phil 3. Paul was not condemning tribal ways. He was condemning those who were making law keeping a requirement of salvation, nothing more and nothing less. There is nothing that you can exegete from this passage that makes it talk about 'tribalism'.

As for my critique of Bell at Seeds of Compassion, I stand by everything I've said and done regarding that matter.

At the Seeds of Compassion event The Dalai Lama said that All Religions, despite their philosophical differences, are THE SAME and produce the same results. Rob Bell was there representing Jesus Christ and he did not once mention Jesus during the event nor did he say even one word to proclaim the truth that salvation is found in no one except Jesus Christ.

By not saying anything Rob Bell created the perception that Christianity is just one valid religious choice among the many religions of the world.

I call that unchristian and I call that evil. The blood of those teens who attended that event and end up in hell is on Rob Bell's hands.

[Erica]

Chris,
"Rob Bell was there representing Jesus Christ and he did not once mention Jesus during the event nor did he say even one word to proclaim the truth that salvation is found in no one except Jesus Christ."
Chris do you know this for a fact? Another word you were there shadowing Rob knowing what he said and did not say. Is this what you are saying?
I told you I agree with you that it was covenant between God and man.
You said it yourself "Again the problem with the Judiazers is not that they were being tribal but that they were making the keeping of the Mosaic Law a requirement of Salvation."
That is tribalism Chris. What you just said.
How do you not get this from the text?
"Sorry but that is not what Paul was saying in Phil 3. Paul was not condemning tribal ways. He was condemning those who were making law keeping a requirement of salvation, nothing more and nothing less."
Why do you think Paul listed his credentials? He is saying it does not matter if he was religious leader, or from the tribe of Benjamin. He is saying the righteous found in Christ is all that matters. What did Pharisees do Chris?
Where all the tribes the same?
If it had nothing to do with tribalism why did he mention it? Who was he calling dogs and mutilators of the flesh? He is obviously referring back to the OT in this passage. It can not possibly be they were arguing over law verses righteousness because all they knew was the law. Paul is saying all your tribal stuff does not matter. Out of anyone Paul did everything right according to his nations practices but he is saying none of that matters. Same thing Rob is saying. IT is not reading into the text. It is right there before you. I am not sure how you are missing it Chris. Why was Paul addressing circumcision again in the NT in I Corinthians 7 There is no reason to right? It is no longer a sign or a covenant between man and God we see that in Romans. He is addressing it because people were making it out to be something it was not which is tribalism.
Check out John 7. What is Jesus saying? You are making this more then it should be and he refers back to Moses and refers back to the patriarchs.
21"Jesus said to them, "I did one miracle, and you are all astonished. 22Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a child on the Sabbath. 23Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath? 24Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."
Again it is tribalism gone amuck.

[Chris Rosebrough]

Erica,

Here is the link for the entire Seeds of Compassion event.

http://www.seedsofcompassion.org/webcast/index.html

I've actually watched the entire event. See if you hear Bell mention Jesus even once or say anything that even remotely sounds like he's proclaiming salvation through Christ alone. You won't find anything. When you watch the video you'll also see the thousands upon thousands of youths that were in attendance.

Instead, his comments make Christianity appear to be just one valid religious option among many.

Regarding tribalism. The Judiazer's insistence that people keep the Mosaic Law is NOT tribalism. It's religious legalism.

Here is the definition of Tribalism:

1: tribal consciousness and loyalty ; especially : exaltation of the tribe above other groups.

Again, you keep isogeting rather than exegeting.

[Joe]

Chris,
Joe here, answering for Erica as we are about to shut it down for the night. She's not asking what you know based on what you saw on video. She wants to know if you were there. Did you walk with Rob and the other people when the cameras were not turned on to know what was said? That is the gist of what she is asking.
As for the tribalism and circumcision thing, I'll let her respond tomorrow, if she so desires. You guys can keep restating the other is wrong on that text until the cows come home for all I care.

[Chris Rosebrough]

Joe and Erica,

Let's pretend for a minute Bell shared the Biblical Gospel and the exclusive claims of Christ with one or two people backstage over a cup of coffee.

How on Earth would that undo the damage he did to the thousands of youths by making Christianity sound like just one valid religion among many?

You're holding out some kind of bizarre hope that Bell did something right in Seattle that no one saw as if that would undo the evil that he did during the 'big show'.

If you discovered that Hitler privately volunteered at soup kitchens on his days off would that absolve him of the sin of murdering 6 million people?

[Erica]

Chris,
Maybe we just interpret scripture differently. I believe every word is inspired and has meaning therefore basic bible interpretation says you ask questions about what you read. And lot of times when dealing with the NT the authors are referring back to the OT so it is imperative to often look back to the OT to understand the NT.
You are still not answering my question.... I did not ask if you listened to the tape. I asked if you shadowed Rob to know everything he did or did say that weekend? It is either yes or no.

[Chris Rosebrough]

Erica,

The question is a stupid question because it is obvious I was not there and was limited to watching the event on the internet.

Like I said before, even if Bell privately shared the gospel with one or two people in private that does not undo the damage and evil that he did during the 'big show' (a point that I have yet to see you respond to)

As far as using the OT to help understand the NT, I do that all the time. In fact, I did it this discussion already. I've produced OT scripture to defends my points regarding Phil 3. You have yet to produce a single passage of scripture that says that circumcision is tribal.

Let me ask you a few questions. Is Buddhism a true or false religion? Are any Buddhists going to be saved through Buddhism? How about Islam, Hinduism and Taoism?

When a Christian tells a Buddhist that she is following a false religion and needs to repent and trust in Christ alone for salvation is that an example of Tribalism run amuck? How do you think that Bell would answer these questions?

[Erica]

Chris,
I have answered your question. Can you find circumcision is tribal in anywhere in scripture. No you can not find those exact terms but it is implied. Just like you can not find the phrase "accept Jesus in your heart!" There are certain things in scripture implied in the text.
It does matter that you were not there. You are treading on dangerous ground. You were not there to speak so emphatically about what Rob did or did not do.
"Is Buddhism a true or false religion? Are any Buddhists going to be saved through Buddhism? How about Islam, Hinduism and Taoism?"
No to all of them. However, does the bible say the greatest commandment is love? Was Rob loving his neighbor bye just showing up there. Yes. Is love what points people to Jesus? Yes. Did God, any where turn his back on those who worshiped other gods? NO. If he had the children of Israel would have been annihilated a long time ago. God's grace and love is offered to them as well as everyone else. They could certainly turn from their false God and turn to Jesus. The only way that will happen is if we follow Jesus's example and have dinner with sinners.

[Chris Rosebrough]

Erica,

Merely showing up does not equal loving people.

By not proclaiming Christ and the gospel and by making Christianity appear to be just one valid religion among many, Rob Bell actually committed a hate crime against the youth in attendance.

Acts 20:26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, 27 for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.

[Erica]

"Merely showing up does not equal loving people."
Who says Chris? You? I believe it does. Here is what Jesus says in Luke 6
32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
John 3
1This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. 13Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
John 3:18
8Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
I John 3:23
3And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
I John 4:12
3And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

I think you get my point even though there are a lot more. Rob showed those teens those world leaders that day that he was no one important. He humbled himself to care about them and show up. He cares about our youth. That is love.

[Chris Rosebrough]

Erica,

Not one of the passages that you sited says that merely showing up = loving someone.

Let me make this clear. I would have had nothing critical to say about Rob Bell attendance at Seeds of Compassion IF IF IF he had not made Christianity appear to be one valid religion among many valid religions.

Love for the world requires us to both show up AND proclaim the truth.

[Erica]

Chris,
You are not listening. You are choosing to ignore what I say because you haveyour own agenda for Rob that is not God's agenda. It is sad. I will pray God changes your heart.

[Walker]

Erica,

I can see from all your posts that you care for the youth that were at the conference. I would also be willing to say that BOTH Chris and Rob care for those youth as well. The question is not whether or not Rob felt love, but whether or not he showed love. If you stand in a boat next to a drowning person and express sympathies are you showing love? If you really wanted to love that person wouldn’t you throw them a life preserver and pull them into the boat?

If we say that Christ is the way the truth and the life, we aren’t saying Christianity is just a better boat, it’s the ONLY boat. In Velvet Elvis Rob asserts that even if the foundational doctrines of Christianity are wrong, it is still a better way to live (the discussion on springs). That’s equivalent to ditching the boat and saying that Christ has taught us a better breast stroke. A better breast stroke won’t get you out of the water.

I teach Jr. High. Every day I need to tell some students things they don’t want to hear. I have to correct them when they are wrong. If I didn’t correct them simply because I wanted to “love” them and not hurt their feelings, I would be harming my students. I teach at a public school so I fully understand having to be careful with my words in order to avoid trouble with the government. However Rob was at a religious conference. He was there under the title of Christian pastor. I watched the video and noticed that other religious figures such as the Buddha where mentioned numerous times, but Christ was not. Rob had an opportunity to share the Gospel but he declined.

Let me finish by saying I am no better. I can identify at least 3 instances in the last week where I could have shared Christ with someone I met but did not. I’m sure there were plenty of other opportunities I didn’t even notice. I am a sinner in need of grace. So is Chris, Rob, you, and everyone else that has contributed to this conversation.

[Douglas K. Adu-Boahen]

I'm a Reformed Baptist teenager. I known kids younger than me with more understanding of Galatians than these goons.

Circumcision was NOT tribalism - it was a sign of God's covenant with the nation of Israel. Read how it is started. Rob Bell is Biblically illiterate like all the other Emergents - and his followers are twice as bad as he is.

Much love and respect, Chris the Big Dawg LOL.